Justin Lam 0:05 You want to find your tribe of raving fans. I'm gonna help you do it. This is the digging deep podcastwith Three Sixty Media where we help you do better business. Hey everybody, this is Justin Lam and you're watching episode nine of digging deeper. We help business owners build better businesses. Today I have a good friend and colleague of ours in the industry. He is a great filmmaker, and he helps businesses find the right audience through videos putting them online in front of people when they want it. Please welcome to the show Justin a booth. Justin, how are you today? Justin Booth 0:45 I'm well, sir. Thank you. I'm seeing you a lot today already. It's good to see some more. Justin Lam 0:50 I know. Right? Yeah. So for those people who didn't know we are both part of being a group and we meet every Wednesday morning and this morning is one of those days. By the time this podcast comes out will probably be a few weeks from now, but you're in a long line of queue. But I did want to thank you. And I think right now being socially distance is such a big shift in our marketplace. And I think one of the things that is forced both you and i into is reevaluating, how are we going to serve audiences who need to still market in such a, not only an emotionally sensitive but also financially sensitive market?
Justin Booth 1:38 I get like waves of anxiety about it, like, sometimes it doesn't bother me so much. I'm optimistic about it. I'm like, What if I just sit back and I take a look and I write, you know, write things down in front of me and I'm like, Look, I can, I can get through this. But when you start thinking about, okay, What if it gets worse. That gets a little frightening and then you and then you turn on the news. And you're like, Oh shit, it's getting worse. It's getting pretty bad. And then you think about how what they're reporting is delayed by at least while it's delayed and not accurate.
Justin Lam 2:23 Yeah, and even the reporting is not accurate. I mean, you could probably add another zero to most of those numbers and, and that'll be closer to the real reality of it. Justin Booth 2:34 Yeah, just some nations in the world that like, you know, just aren't keeping up with testing like, I'm sorry, I just got back from Mexico before this all broken. that country's not rolling out mass testing in the small communities across their coast and countryside like, Justin Lam 2:52 yeah, Mel laid my wife is, is on a few different podcasts with some pretty high profile. research scientists and there's just like, it's pretty grim. They estimate 1% of the population will, will die from it. Justin Booth 3:12 Yeah, and then and then just the speed at which it hit all of our collective realities, let alone the businesses but how it just brought everything to a stop and that's why Yeah, that's why I think the government's just gonna start cutting checks and, and verifying later because they can't afford to waste time verifying everyone, because the people that are really, really in need needed now and the people that are just going to scam the system. Well, hopefully, there's enough follow up afterwards to catch them and and punish them but the people that need it needed now. Like even worse, they need to pay the rent today. Justin Lam 3:56 Yeah, it's crazy. But the other half of that is Like, how much money is going to be, like transferable transferred? And how much? And how can that be sustainable? Like, like, the the deficit is already huge, it's going to be gargantuan after. And then of course, you know, the GDP is down, you're going to have huge implications across the board. With that, and, and, you know, industry is going to take least a year to recover. And then, you know, trickle down supplementary services like us where we're part luxury Part, Part necessity. Yeah, we were one of the last ones like to recover, there's a good majority of the population that will be hurting for money and they're, you know, scrambling to get their their heads above water and preparing for what they have to pay back in terms of the loans and anything that they've they've had supplemented in the next little while, so it's scary. It's also scary to to realize how few people have runways financially to sustain themselves. Justin Booth 5:09 Yeah, I know. And I have to admit Mine isn't as strong as I wish it was right now I've been able to, like I said, Take a wide view, okay, like we can we can do it, it's gonna affect the other decisionsthat I wanted to make. You know, I mean Justin Lam 5:24 That's everybody. I mean, like myself included. It's, the hard reality. It's just like, well, what, what can I keep active and who can I keep employed? and for how long before I can't figure out a way to sustain the revenue stream. And then of course, all the luxury stuff that we would normally buy are out the window. I mean, right now we're lucky in that we still have enough financial runway to buy good food when good food is available in the stores. You know, like, like, quality food like, I mean, prior to this we we lived a life where dual income you know, and and healthy was able to sustain like, you know, at least farm fresh eggs and stuff like that and a lot less pasta and all that stuff. But the reality is what's going to happen in 60 months if this continues on and you know, people eventually will will run the system dry it's just you know, imagine finding toilet paper was beat this difficult like you know, Justin Booth 6:37 I first went and bought a roll a pack like a whatever 12 pack or whatever. And it was right at the beginning when all that weird stuff was going on. I felt so embarrassed by I felt like I was buying like feminine products but I just needed toilet paper I wasn't hoarding as like it's time to buy toilet paper, but yeah I can't believe that became a thing either. And it's crazy. Yeah. And yeah, some of that behavior was despicable. But I hear you saying yeah six, eight months down the road those those those shelves that that supply chain could really really get tested. Justin Lam 7:18 Mm hmm. Yeah. Justin Booth 7:20 Lots of fresh vegetables and fruit on the shelves which is a which is a comment on how healthfully the majority of people are eating and it might not be that healthy because there's plenty of fresh vege Justin Lam 7:34 Oh, yeah, yeah, I went to no frills on Broadway there and and, like, I was like, Oh, well, clearly, people aren't really starving for stuff because like the organic section is still full. So, you know, we just pick up the litter, like, that's that's never had. Exactly. So I mean, for now, we're not worried about it too, too much like the business. We have have three and a half, four ish months at the capacity right now if I scale back, I probably could last up to six. But I'm hoping not to scale back. I'm hoping to scale up and adapt at this time, but we'll see how that goes. Justin Booth 8:14 Yeah, well, what I mean what are what are you thinking in terms of scaling up? How do you approach that? I that's what I think all of us are struggling How do you approach marketing your business right now? Justin Lam 8:25 Well, I think it's like everything else. I mean, the conversations organic. And for me, it's, it's about trying to, to give value where I can and then find places where there is a there's a crossroads between available funds, and, you know, being able to monetize on certain Cornerstone pieces of our business like there are lots of things we can do. And it's just finding the right people who have budgets because other people who Do have budgets, but they're just sitting on it because the world has stopped. But that doesn't mean that they didn't have healthy enough budgets. And I know a lot of people aren't in that boat, and that's okay. You know, but at the same token, if we don't advertise, and we don't push our own services at that point, you're going to sink. And so you just have to come at it in a place that's genuine and not sleazy. And you just have to be honest about, you know, your offerings and whether that you're, you know, you're gonna be able to help that person, you know, satisfy a need at this point, and people have a bunch of fires going on and all their buckets and if you have a service that is able to fill and put out or extinguish the fire out of that bucket, then it's okay. Like, you know, you're, you're, you're clearly helping a person solve something and if it means that there's a financial remittance at the end Have it. I mean, there's got to be something there. I mean, unless you're going to do it on trade or whatever. And that's another currency that people I think, forget is that there's trade involved with a lot of things. And there's some things that that can happen on trade that that can ease the mind of some individuals. I mean, of course bank stock trade dollars for Justin Booth 10:23 No! if you can trade services and goods with people you're doing business with, and maybe it's something that you essentially need or maybe it is one of those luxury items that you need right now. Like, you know, your family could really use a new couch right now. You're spending a lot of time on it. And yeah, if you're doing business with a furniture stores like that, maybe like stuff like that is no and that's not relevant currency right now. Justin Lam 10:46 Yeah. And, I mean, the world used to work that way. I mean, you know, the reason why money is such a commoditized thing or such a high value thing is because people actually put themselves in debt. And when you're in debt, that's that's the problem is is that you have to value money. Whereas if you had a very low debt load and a lot, a lot of things that you know, don't rely a ton on money, you can actually get by it quite quite well with with barter and trade, so long as somebody was up for it, but the problem is, is when you're when you have to pay the piper somewhere, the ability for you to want to trade is different. Justin Booth 11:28 Yeah, that's an interesting point. You're right. When you're in debt, you value money much more. Justin Lam 11:33 Yeah, yeah. If you didn't have debt, and like somebody said, Hey, I can't pay you financially, but I'm a farmer, and I've got all these groceries, I can supply you with groceries for, you know, two, three months, you'd be like, sure, but when you have like a $10,000 line of credit out and you have to make monthly payments on the sucker, unfortunately, the that doesn't necessarily help. point, I mean, you'd be okay with box cereal, as long as the hole was filled, right, and that's the difference is, you know, 10,000 isn't really huge, but you know, there are other businesses that 20- 30-40 -100 thousand dollars and you know, they're not sponsoring your kids, you know, hockey tournament or soccer tournament because that that $1,000 is going to go into their monthly payments, right. Justin Booth 12:23 And there's a lot of businesses right now that are having to really consider taking on that, like this 40 grand the government is, and my accountant is like, you better apply for it. Yeah, I don't know if I need it. I mean, I think I can do and she's like, no, apply for Justin Lam 12:38 it like, you should. Like Justin Booth 12:40 if you can get that money in your hands and see me with it. You can always just turn it around and send them a check back if you don't spend it. Justin Lam 12:50 Yep, that's exactly it. It's better to have it Justin Booth 12:52 justify the need because of your business and the way it's it's you you're crazy not to get in line for that. Yeah. Absolutely So, but yeah, I mean, How are business is gonna deal with that on the flip side when when it does come time to pay the piper now a business that operated with little or no debt is like I got it's gonna take me 20 years or you know longer to pay back $40,000 to the GOV and that's a real tough decision for some really small businesses like solopreneurs like me and others who have, you know, a couple employees or that's a really tough burden to, to think about taking on I'm going to do it and if I spend any of the money it'll be done very wisely, but it's a Yeah, for others where you just have to, you've got rent for a business location and employees and suppliers depending on your business. money's not gonna last that long. Justin Lam 13:56 No, and I mean, this is a good Topic to kind of dive in on I think from a business perspective, I think a lot of people really over leveraged themselves and and this actually alludes to the to a podcast that I recently recorded with Ryan, about dashboards and about people in their businesses and they're not financially ready or really financially viable. You know, I know in in at least the photographer or videographer space, it's by the nice pretty gear up front and pay for it when when gigs come in. And now Where are the gigs and I know there I know, personally have a few people who've recently bought gear over leveraged themselves. They're stuck. Justin Booth 14:46 I've got payments or no cash. Justin Lam 14:49 Yeah, and that's a really tough place to be. And so yeah, Justin Booth 14:53 you can sell it back or whatever, but then your business is gone. Justin Lam 14:56 But then but that's the thing is are they are able to sell it back and how many People are going to be able to buy it if a lot of us are in the same boat. So they're not really able to do that. And, and that's really tough because, you know, they're gonna come out at the end of this with zero to no money. And, you know, I liken it to, you know, when we first started out as photographers and videographers like, you know, your groundbreaking and and you're literally going to have to start all over again. And and that's a scary, scary thought. If you think about it, I mean, even the bigger players, you know, are are hurting and that means they're laying off people. That means that all their equipment leases, like they're either liable for it or, you know, there's going to be a bunch of assault insolvencies that are going to come up through the pipeline. You know, so what does that landscape look like for photographers and videographers coming out of it? Justin Booth 15:52 It will thin out the herd a bit, my friend, which is okay because you and I dealt with all business do. Have you but we've, we in our industry, the barrier to entry has steadily gone down. And so we have certainly seen an increase of ankle biters coming up from below doing it for next to nothing that will this will thin out some of the herd which is unfortunate like you don't wish that upon anyone. There's I come my mindset, it's all about growth. And I think if you have that mindset, you can see an abundance of opportunities. And there's enough there's enough for everyone I think you and I've talked about before that is enough business for everyone but those that are just getting into it, who haven't quite got their systems sorted out and haven't quite they know how to work the key the gear, but they haven't quite figured out how to work the business. It's it's going to be next to impossible. Justin Lam 16:56 Yeah, I think that for people who are in that boat where they're there, when they come back, they're going to be, you know, offering their services for cheap trying to just recover financially. at it, there's a real danger involved in that. And I think that's, it's unspoken, I know, a lot of photographers in, in different circles, you know, poopoo on, you know, the, the, you know, the $300 gig kind of person. And the real truth about it is is, you know, a lot of us started out that way. I mean, it was a hobby wasn't a business. And what you did was you built yourself a job at one point. Yeah. Perhaps our dive today about that is is really, when you're putting yourself at that level, there. There's a difference between having a business and being self employed. And that's a really big distinction. And I think, from not only the, the artists end of it, so the actual photography But from the consumer end as well, it's a really big difference and a very big delineation. You know, when they talking about a freelancer, they're talking about a person who's self employed. And of course, the rates are lower, but then there are caveats to that too. You know, they might be lower for a variety of reasons, overhead could be lower. Right. And also that their, their own perceived value is is actually undermined by themselves. Justin Booth 18:35 Yeah, it's doing them a disservice as well as the industry. Justin Lam 18:39 Yeah. And so I, and I don't want to know what your take on that is, is that but I think that when a person is a freelancer, and they're their own secret sauce, and they don't really wish to build a business, but they want to remain a freelancer, that they should actually be charging a premium rather than taking it on the lower road because it is a lot of their own individual IP, like their own intellectual property that's into it and their their own secret sauce. I don't go to a dentist like, you know, Doctor so and so to see their associate, I go to smile dental to see their associate, but if I go to a specific dentist, I expect to see my dentist, you know, versus a conglomerate chain, where I'm seeing an associate of some sorts. And there's a there's a distinction between that because I would imagine that the level of care for that particular individual that I decided to choose to see, you know, has their own special abilities, something that's uniquely their own, you know, the way that they handle themselves, their, their visual identity, you know, their process or whatever, and that's them and it's nuts. Maybe it's not scalable as a business. And that they should actually be pricing instead of lowball entry level like, like low hanging fruit. Justin Booth 19:59 Yeah, no I agree, I think it's all rooted in mindset. You know, either they're either you your mindsets, just not not healthy to begin with, or you're or you're young and your mindset hasn't caught up to your ability. Yeah, I mean, I, I sort of I went that direction A long time ago. Like, I operate as a solopreneur with contractors around me that I pulled in for different jobs. But yeah, I mean, my prices may seem high for a four hour task. But it took me 20 years to learn how to do it in four hours and you can hire someone else is going to take them 10 and cost maybe even cheaper. But, you know, I've got the skills and ability we've got the skills and ability because of our experience to do it more efficiently. Our systems are such that, you know, quality controls, they're so yeah, no, I'm with you. That's not always the case with the skills match. Do you know the price for younger people, but there are a lot of really talented people out there doing great work that are stuck in entry level pricing. And that's their own decision. I can't remember who it was or what the quote was. But somewhere along the line, my mindset switched about that. And it was pretty instantaneous. It was like, Hey, you know what, I can charge 120 bucks an hour. I'm worth it. I do really good work. Yep, I can provide good customer service. And a lot of my colleagues don't they're, they're their operators, their technicians. Justin Lam 21:39 Yep. And it's a really big thing about that. And I believe I believe that's true, I think. Yeah, I mean, I think that you should charge a premium for for the services that that you provide if you're providing value and the real truth about it, and and I know there's a lot of pushback in some some capacity. My theory is as the market dictates how much you're worth, you can influence that. So you can put out a number, you could say that you're worth $1,000 an hour. And if somebody buys you at $1,000 an hour, you are halfway to that equation, right? That means that somebody saw enough value to buy it upfront. The other half of that value is if that person returns or shares you with that person, then you know, if you have a viable market, because you can say you're worth 1000, the person tries it and they don't think you're worth $1,000, then you're not worth $1,000 the markets telling you so right. But that doesn't mean that if you charge 120, and you're really busy, that you couldn't go to 200 to 250 until you start to see the fall off and go, Hmm, people aren't accepting me for that price point. So then you're not worth what you really think you're worth. You're worth what the market feels that you're worth, because you're delivering a set amount of value that perceived, you know, for the money that they're exchanging, whether you're a luxury brand good or your, you know, your toilet paper, right? Like, if you're one ply toilet paper, people aren't going to pay the premium for it because, you know, your finger goes through the toilet paper when you go wipe your ass, but they're willing to pay a little bit more for three ply. You know, and it might be more than three times the price per sheet. But, you know, they're able to provide value because their fingers don't stink. And they're not messy after right. Justin Booth 23:36 Well, what an apropos analogy, my friend what uh it's funny because we're dealing with is like, I think we both remember struggling with that like early on, like, I want to, I want to charge more and, you know, wondering if you're worth it. And then I'm simultaneously going through that all over again as my business pivots to offer new services that are forcing me to learn new skills and work with new people. And again, I'm struggling with that. So I'm just starting out sometimes, and I should price accordingly. And, you know, I'm fighting against that with myself again to view it a little more objectively, unless emotionally, Justin Lam 24:22 and there's nothing wrong with it. Yeah, and there's nothing wrong with charging a lot lower to start. I mean, you're in a sense that you're paying to educate yourself. And you know, as you as you mature and you acquire more clients, you're going to see that ability to raise your pricing. And at that point, I think you should feel comfortable through it. And understand the mindset that goes on with that. I feel like a lot of people are like, oh, like, I feel like I'm charging so little because like, I'm still learning it. But that's part of the process is like, you know, you've learned some of it. There's obviously more to go Of course, the time it takes you is far different than somebody who's, you know, a veteran or a season person in that in that environment. So that's okay. Because it costs you to say, like double the time and you charge half the money compared to somebody else who takes half the time and doubles, your net zero, you got to the same point. So the value proposition is exactly the same. It's just, you know, you've given up one for the other and, you know, I think that that's okay. As long as there's transparency involved, and as you improve and you speed up, I think that the pricing should go and you and I have been in in business long enough to kind of see how that's evolved, you know, in in the capacity as being, you know, your case videography and my case, both photo and video. It's, you know, when we did video, I started off quite low because we were we were still learning the ropes to it. You know, photography was the mainstay and we grew With it and as we grew with it, the demand grew with it. And you get to a point where you go, huh? And you pushed and pushed and pushed until you got to a point where you go, okay? If I push a little bit higher, I have a significant fall off. And is that fall off too high for me to sustain where I want to be, and the quality of work that I'm willing to put out. Right. And that's, that's something that, you know, we have to toy with. I mean, for photography, I actually started right out the gate, I did my first two weddings for free, just to get my feet wet into it, because then nothing to show for it. I mean, it was literally zero. And I knew that starting and and doing it, you know, pro bono at the time was going to be the barrier to entry. And then after doing that, I did I personally did everything mathematically. So I calculated the prices of overhead or whatever. And if you extrapolate backwards through Three Sixty's history, if you took my dollar costs averaged now to what it was, you know, back in 2001, late 2000? Well, when I started, I've grown with inflation primarily with, with only one or two incremental jumps because of the breadth of service, or the level of, of service that we've gotten. So, you know, took the unit pricing itself. I haven't grown much more than necessarily inflation, but I might have added additional services and, and, and width to the business. So I mean, in that case, I think, you know, being able to survive 20 years, we, we've done that modeled from a financial projection, versus like most people who kind of just kind of come into it and just take a ballpark number and roll with it. Justin Booth 27:52 Yeah, yeah. I don't think I've dug into my my numbers as deeply as you have over the years, but it It's definitely Yeah, I look at the sophistication of how I operate my business and offer my services now, compared to Yeah, the fly by the seat of your pants days. Justin Lam 28:11 Yeah. Yeah. And so you and I have been through over two decades now, or get into two decades. And you know, I'm lucky I haven't I haven't shown too much where Asian, I have the Asian gene in me. Yeah, the Asian thing going on. But this is relevant. You and I have weathered through a vast amount of change in our industry, both from the type of media that we started off with the resolutions, the type of camera and technology and computers that go along with it. We've also both seen a numerous amount of up and down market trends. Yeah. So in your journey, what have you found as the up and downs, and how did you adapt through all the different changes? Let's start from maybe like technology standpoint, you know, from from the day you started to now, what did you have to endure? And what did you change in your business? Justin Booth 29:17 We had to endure. We had, gosh, I had to endure two partners that love to buy gear. And I was the partner who was like, let's just get what we need. So I was a little more practical, but I always try and gather my thoughts here but I think what we did right when it came to technology was we always future proved ourselves and I don't have partners anymore so I'm speaking in the past tense but I still I still do that with purchases I make I'm like am I still gonna be able to use this five years down the road? If not, I'm probably They're not going to buy it. Or I'll wait and see if it's just an emotional thing. So I've always future proof myself by like, digging into the technology and the specs and looking at other trends in the market to see okay, is this resolution? Is this technology? Is this going to hold up in the long run? Or is there a change coming? I had to endure like a little bit of risk, some some some lease payments, some some financial risks to acquire those tools that did future proof me because entry level tech and prosumer technology wasn't gonna cut it. And so yeah, we took a bit of a risk financially and had to endure, you know, monthly lease payments for years to make sure we can still have the tools. Yeah, as far as like, market trends, we've seen everything change, man, like When we first started out, we were shooting in standard definition. And what are we delivering? We're delivering videos on DVD, Justin Lam 31:08 still doing beta or tapes. Justin Booth 31:11 Yeah, I was delivering cam for broadcasts like getting stuff put onto tape. But to my like digital clients, because that's where I entered was when digital started. So the remnants of the tape era were still hanging around for some businesses who had that huge infrastructure invested in it. But my digital clients, it was like get DVDs to play on a standard definition television in a store or at a trade show.So that and I lasted quite a while and then yeah, man, I still got some. Justin Lam 31:48 Oh, maybe just sitting there, Justin Booth 31:50 just sitting there. But then when the social media revolution happened I didn't see it immediately. That was going to change advertising forever. And marketing forever. That's what we see happening now is like, you know, I was last time you did a job for broadcast. Like When's the last time you did a job for anything other than the web? Yeah. You know, and photography is different because people still want hard copies of certain things but in video it's like so that's what's happening now and and and what what where it's going? I don't know. I think ecommerce is going to explode and they use video and and really strategically created marketing around that is gonna be huge, because we see the retail environment collapsing on itself been to a mall lately. When you go there, buddy there. They were. The They were like quarantine. Like they were playing that you want to sell distance go to a mall, there's nobody there. Justin Lam 33:05 Mm hmm.And that's the thing is is, you know, even though ecommerce is exploding, how do you think that fares given the technology available? Now and, and how do you feel about, you know, our industry as as it evolves? Justin Booth 33:26 I think what you're getting at is like, and correct me if I'm wrong, but like people have the power to create in their hands. Is that kind of what you're getting at? Yeah. So where does that position us is professional content creators if the business owner can create their own? So here's what I see happening on that, I think for a long time when YouTube was a whole set at its height, but it's not even close yet, I don't think but when YouTube was first starting to get like holy, this thing is huge. What we accepted as for quality for like for production value started to kind of dip I think, as more and more people put out kind of mediocre looking content. But the guts of what they were actually talking about was valuable as that content started to become more and more people started excusing low quality. And now I think what's happening is that starting to change, and I think the quality of production is starting to match the quality of the content or the message and the content. And so what I think is going to happen is that's going to put people like you and I, who are filmmakers and photographers first. When we up when we combine those skills with the power of a marketing that's happening online right now, I think that puts us in a in a really good position I think you'll see for a lot of advertisers and marketers a move back to quality to again distinguish themselves and their brand as a premium, you know, as better than the other guys is better than that guy that's making his own videos. I don't know that's, that's my gut on where it's gonna go and I'm starting to see. Yeah, I'm starting to see it. Guys like Casey Neistat how and with Gary Vee. Right, those guys. I think those two guys in particular are sort of signaling that to me anyways, with the amount of the size of their audience. And then you look at the value of their production values. It's like it's pretty good, huh? Justin Lam 35:45 Yeah, I mean, I think they're, I think the middle market will become commoditized. I think. I think the general public as you alluded to has a lower settlement. standard for what's acceptable, and they're willing to do with less, and they're trying to dump their money into other avenues that they think moves the needle forward. And I think there will be a selected few in the upper echelon of, of the marketplace that will understand that. There's, there's also a component of production value and content that comes with a content creator, like yourself and myself, who have a particular sort of aesthetic and production level and quality and tools available. And of course, the ease or and the speed of turnaround. Justin Booth 36:43 Yeah, Justin Lam 36:43 I think as much as everybody really loves to do their own videos, I think, by the very nature of how lazy society is, that will keep us employed, and keep us busy. But I think in terms of, you know, taking it to another level, I think, for people like you and I, we to separate ourselves, we have to go above and beyond, and we have to show not only production value, but be able to, to distinguish, you know, from, you know, the the 19 year old kid who is producing good content, but doesn't necessarily do it at scale or at the speed that we do it. Like, they have to be in the mood to edit that one or two travel videos. And you know, that $300 just doesn't spark them to do it for everybody else, because it's not there. It's not fat, it's like it's, they're not into it. You know, and that's where people are going to struggle that they want that really flashy video, and they want to contract this you know, person and unless that person is really driven to produce and produce on time and on budget and on spectrum You know, as as advertised, they're going to struggle. They just can't do it. And I know a bunch of people in that space who produce good work. Can't go and edits unless they feel like you're. Yeah. And so like, what would take us two days to produce takes them a month and a half, two months to produce the same type of video, because we do it. Because we have the infrastructure and the gusto to do it. And we don't have to be in the mood. They have to be in the mood. And I think that's where we get to shine. Justin Booth 38:42 Yeah, I mean, you're right. And you mentioned like how guys it goes up to raise our game and it's like, that's where the gray hair comes in, but it communicates experience. Justin Lam 38:51 So I go to the salt and pepper look. Justin Booth 38:54 But we have like, so much experience working with businesses and it works. with them, like, what I've always liked about about our industry is when you're working with a client, you're really in this sort of incubator of their business and you you learn what makes a business tick a lot of the time how it operates. So for me, it's really fascinating to see Oh, that's how that business operates. That's how they do their thing. And that's how that industry works. So like how I'm trying to position myself now to distinguish myself from those young people coming up in our industry is like I'm unless of I think I've used this language with you before, but I'm less than a dude with a camera now. And I want to position myself more as, as like a business consultant and marketing consultant who wants to know first what your business what how your business is operating, where your challenges in that business are. And it kind of turns the conversation on its head from what the typical video video producer is going to talk about. Like we're going to make this cool video. Now because organization for me now starts with well how's your business doing? Where are your challenges? What are your what problems are you having? And then, okay, well, how can we use video to solve that? And sometimes you can. Sometimes you can't. But that's my conversation start now. And it's you it's it's probably about repositioning me like upping my game and offering more than just the pretty pictures, huh? You know, now these pictures have to do and we got the tools to to demonstrate how they work and how they can drive business. So that's, yeah, that's that's where you and I can can offer way more than the dudes with cameras coming up. Justin Lam 40:46 So for people who are like in business, small business and solopreneurs who are bootstrapping What is your take on their entry and foray into something like YouTube And and into video. Do you suggest that they do YouTube? You know, do you feel like they should be empowered to go and do that? Or do you think they should just be hands off and let you do all the work? Justin Booth 41:18 I'm not sure if I know you mean, like, you mean the client going in and using YouTube? Justin Lam 41:22 And yeah, I think if this podcast is to try to provide value for somebody who's considering it, who isn't a videographer who isn't a photographer, you know, what do you what are your thoughts about them entering YouTube now? I mean, you alluded that YouTube is not at its peak. And and like, I understand why you said, you know, when it was at its peak, I think you meant from a content creators perspective, but not necessarily from an industry perspective. Yeah, Justin Booth 41:51 yeah. Yeah, no, I, I think I know several business owners that I think they're particularly tuned into their marketing and They like, they like to dabble on the social media platforms with their marketing. So it's I guess it's going to be case by case. But for those that have an affinity for it, yeah, they're really powerful tools that allow you to peel back and look behind the campaign at how it's actually performing. So for a business owner that is data driven about their business, the ability to take a look at is it's there. It's available. And you ask anyone who's invested their marketing dollars in newspaper advertising, radio advertising, or television advertising, and you ask them, how's that going for you? They don't know. I literally have one business owner who told me Well, I run an ad in the paper. And a week later people show up on the day I told them, I was having a sale. And it's busy that day busier than normal. So it must be working. Like, well, yeah, that's really antiquated. So, yeah, I think business owners who have an affinity for it and wanting, I think they should jump on and experiment and learn. And if they can, it's always it's all if they can take it to the next level by, you know, working with someone like us who can dig back to that next layer, which is actually designing the campaigns and doing the targeting and, you know, doing the backend work that actually gets those results. Justin Lam 43:41 So let's go into that back end support. So, you know, what do you think or what have you seen are common mistakes that people try to do on their YouTube channel that that they think is is moving the needle but may not necessarily be be doing what they think it does. Justin Booth 44:00 humor. Humor is so hard, I think. Yeah, I think you have to when you're creating content and think about the content you're going to create. It's hard. But you've got to really focus on on on the content, the actual words the information that you're passing on. Period. Yeah, I think you have to focus on the information, make sure it's going to be a value to your customer. They're either going to learn something, or they're going to be entertained. edutainment, right is the old the old phrase for it, I think. I think that's what, what, what people really need to concentrate on when they're thinking about creating content online. Is it going to educate and entertain in that order? As far as other places I think people are missing. I mean, I think a lot People are throwing dollars at at you know, boosting posts and stuff like that, which I don't know the effectiveness of that. I think for those campaigns to really be effective, you've got to, you've got to approach it a little more sophisticated than that. I feel like the boost button on Facebook in particular is kind of like clickbait. It is bait. It is absolutely I got 200 views and that excites people and gives them a little shot. And then the hope is that they'll spend more but some people I know that's they throw five bucks or 20 bucks and they get a little they get one post that gets about that's not consistently moving any business into your business. Justin Lam 45:47 Yeah, and that's there's so much there's so much stuff that goes into the strategy and I think people don't really understand, but you know, I've had conversations with other people in this space in particular space. And the amount of money that you actually have to put in, to test try and to put in is astronomical, actually, it's quite daunting. It's not that $20 $30 you know, I mean, $200 is a real, you know, like, drop in the bucket to what you're really going to have to spend in ad spend in order to really figure out what's going to work for your particular niche, your particular voice, the people that you target, all the things that you thought would work, you know, sometimes it's not the real reality of it. And, you know, from a marketers perspective, I don't think anybody really has a secret sauce, they might have ways to you know, segment it but at the end of the day, all marketers and, and somebody who tells you that they want the secret sauces is I personally view as lying So, if you got to see somebody watching this and you guys secret sauce, and you want to put in the test, I would, I would would pay to watch, you fail to replicate it over and over again. Because the real trial and error is, you don't know what the market wants until you put it out there, and then you start to curate it, Justin Booth 47:12 you can curate it, you test it, you tweak it, you iterate it slowly, slowly. And that's what, that's what people that work with us need to understand. It's like, you're gonna have to endure a couple months, where all we're doing is just sitting and watching and changing one little thing at a time. Justin Lam 47:35 And it's sequential. And that's the thing is, is you can't change the whole gamut, because then you introduce a whole new set of variables. And you don't know which variable worked and which one didn't. Justin Booth 47:45 Okay, only one at a time, you'll be able to get Oh yeah, we change that headline. Or we change that image, we change that one thing and Oh, we got a bump, we got a bump in the numbers, we got more conversions, or we got more click throughs or whatever metric you're looking at. And that for advertisers is kind of a painful thing to come to grips with. It's like it's gonna cost me thousands of dollars just to test this mofo. Hmm. Yeah, because that's really there is no secret sauce. Got it. You've got to spend a lot of time and discovery and learning about your clients business we do our clients businesses so that we can craft a message in a campaign that is strategic and has a really clear goal in mind. But whatever creative we come up with and whatever audience we deliver that message to, there's no guarantee is going to work and you will have to test and you will have to change and you will have to prepare for that to take sometimes months. But when you do get it right, and your your return on investment starts to increase then the magic can happen. And the opportunity is still there. I think first for businesses in all segments in all industries to do this, to do it right. And then when it's dialed in, smoke the competition. Justin Lam 49:17 Yeah. And I think you're really on the on that track. I think a lot of people don't really understand that. We, as digital marketers, you know, and content creators are really still in infancy of web marketing and advertising. I know. At one point, it was really easy when it was really brand new, and, you know, people like Gary Vaynerchuk, you know, made their life on it, you know, buying keywords for pennies on the dollar. But I think from an advertising perspective, I think the frustration from a consumer standpoint is that they feel like they're wasting so much money in order to figure out what that looks like. And, you know, they read about these people who have, you know, huge up tick and surge in their business with these secret sauce things, but they forget that, you know, there were the 20 years to the overnight success. Yeah, you know, and and that still took trial and error, yes, those ads work. But those ads work because that guy was tweaking it, you know, for the you know, the many years beforehand and it finally hit. And yes, it could be successful now, but it doesn't mean that it's successful forever. And that's a really big part of you know, what advertising is in the thing. That's the frustration that we get to face when, you know, people are looking at putting money into production and advertising is, you know, they all talk about ROI, and what are they going to get in the short term, but it isn't always about the short term now is it? Justin Booth 50:55 No, not for not for real success. And so that goes back When you when you as a business owner hear someone offering you that the secret sauce solution? It's Yeah. Justin Lam 51:11 It's don't spend the $27 to go buy the fucking book. Justin Booth 51:17 Yeah, those ones, those ones that make you kind of go, Ah, really that sounds a little too good to be true. It is too good to be true. And the other thing that like, Look, I've run into a few digital marketers over the years that I know they are in it because they see the ability to create recurring revenue for themselves because they can put someone on a retainer. You can't sleep at the wheel on these things. You can't just turn the campaign on and go golfing down you know or whatever or you've got a if you're running five campaigns for five clients, yeah, sure. You're creating great recurring revenue for your business as long as you're getting them results but you're still getting the results. Because you're monitoring those campaigns, and you're working on those campaigns, it's not just turn it on and let the algorithm go to work and start, you know, printing money for your business. Yeah. And it's actually staying engaged and on top of it and working with their clients, and it's got to be a close relationship. Justin Lam 52:23 Yeah, and Seth Godin mentions that in his book, purple cow, it's, you know, we in marketing in order to stand out, especially in such a noisy marketplace, online, digitally, there's just so much stuff being thrown at us. You get those, you know, what they call the purple cow, that unique, special, something that gets put in front of you. And, you know, if you stare that purple cow, you know, for a long enough time, it becomes not interesting anymore. And so that just alludes to what it is that you were talking about is you can set up an ad and you can Have a great ad and it could run for a little while and you could you could maybe sit on it for a little bit. But it ultimately starts to decline. And I mean, you know, the effectiveness of that ad and things have to change because, you know, people people get immune or callous to, you know what everybody else is doing. Justin Booth 53:20 callous is the emotion I think a lot of people feel I heard an analogy theother day from saw a filmmaker that I know who said he saw an ad for the Red Cross during a webcast of us watching a TV show streaming. And that Red Cross ad came up and he admired the cinematography and the production values, all the things they did to make that Adams was a great ad. And the second and third time he saw it during that 40 minute broadcast, he thought the same thing with the fifth and sixth and seventh and eighth time he saw it. He started just liking it and having an negative feeling towards the Red Cross for not showing him something different. And so yeah, you you, when you build these campaigns, you you can't. You can use a lot of people with a lot of messaging. But if you're showing them the same thing over and over and over again and you're not, you're not taking them on a journey, you really have to take them on a journey of getting to know you and your service and your business and your product. And that's more than just the first thing they see what we try to design is a customer journey that through a process of three or four different pieces of content, unique content delivered at different periods in their journey, they get to know like and trust you, right? They get to know that you're an authority, they get to build some affinity and they get to like you you know you take them on that process. With with the content. So that's what we try to do and in all the work we're doing right now, and yeah, take people on that journey. Justin Lam 55:09 Yeah, no 100% agree. And then and it's funny because we'll be taking your person on that journey. You know, I I liken it to really when you're young I don't know if I'm dating myself but you know those choose your own story books were like, you know, you open it up and you know, you decided to take this part and so you had to flip to another page to start over in my Justin Booth 55:32 in their in my shopping cart on Amazon right now you can buy a set of 60 originals for like 48 bucks, like the original artwork and everything paperback same as used to get your elementary school Justin Lam 55:44 library and that's the thing is, and that's what it is, and and I think everybody and everybody is so lazy now in the marketplace where they just try to put up blanket ads because they want to cover everybody and their whole goal is is that if enough people start See what I have that like there are people willing to buy in? It's really not the truth. It's Justin Booth 56:06 you have to make people. The the analogy I use isy ou have to your marketing has to make people self identify, you have to hit them with a message that is, yeah, it's not going to hit everybody in the marketplace, it's going to hit that one person who's going to put their hand on will go, geez, that's my problem, that I need that solution. Right? It's like being in a crowded room. You know, like a stadium and, you know, there's a medical emergency and someone has needs a doctor and yellow is there a doctor in the house? Like, that's what your advertising needs to do is yell out for that particular person. So that they when they hear that message, go Yes, yes, I'm a doctor. You know, that's what my analogy I think about one more I'm creating, you know, campaigns and, and, and, and videos for people. It's like Is this going to make someone go? I need that because that's, that's what works on me. And that's, you know, I've been caught in a couple sales funnels online where it's like, Damn, that was really good. Like that language spoke right to me. Right And that's, that's eliminating a lot of people in your potential audience. But it's narrowing down on people that are ready to buy. Justin Lam 57:27 Mm hmm. introduces the friction, Justin Booth 57:30 reduces the friction and instead of, instead of trying to sell to 20 people or 20 million people, you just, you try and concentrate your message. Maybe you're delivering the message to a big audience. But the message is designed so that those particular people within the audience are going to go Yeah, that's me. I need that and they'll click on your ad or your video. they've entered into your sales funnel andyou're off to the races. Justin Lam 58:06 Yep. And that's a it's a, it's a really big, big part. So one of the things I like to ask my guests is what is one of your favorite resources, either related to, you know your profession or you know, something that you just find value in, whether it's a book a podcast, maybe it's my podcast you know, what is it that you like to refer to? To add value into your life? Justin Booth 58:37 Sure. Okay, TV and movies, I I've always used those for inspiration and ideas, whether it's the advertising on TV or the programming I'm watching. That's always informed my ideas to help in the productions I'm working on. Sometimes it's like a the way a graphic is displayed on the screen. You know, I'll go and watch commercials for a while. Okay, I'll design it that way. So just what's on TV is always been useful to me. There's a podcast onwhat's the what's the NPR, the National? It sound the states. Anyway, they've got a podcast on NPR called how I built this. Justin Lam 59:25 Oh, yes, yes, Justin Booth 59:26 that's my favorite podcast handout because they interview business owners of like household name brands and businesses. And they talked to them about their journey from inception to where they are now. And to hear those stories and how many times they failed along the way or how many times they thought it was all over. That's never gonna work and they got and and to hear how they came out of it just through persistence and mostly persistence. Just not quitting is really inspirational and amazing. So I highly recommend that one. Justin Lam 1:00:06 Now, I know we're entering the long part of our meeting. So I'm gonna have to cut this one short tonight. But thank you so much for being on the podcast. I hope people who are listening to this find value if you did, please make sure you subscribe, like and follow you can find Justin. Well, Justin booth at WWW.dockvisualmedia.com and if you have questions about video production, you know, feel free to reach out to him. He's a good friend of mine. And you know, as you can see, we have good banter and we have good good discussions and even though we're both in the same industry, I think it's like everything else. We both serve our markets and and we both have great value to provide to clients. Justin Booth 1:00:56 I've always enjoyed I our industry because you can collapse With your competitors instant, I've always always enjoyed collaborating and talking to you. Justin Lam 1:01:07 Absolutely. Well, we'll probably pick up another one. later on. I think I think if this one does well and people have questions, it'd be worth our while to hop on another one and maybe dive down a specific avenue of stuff. Unknown Speaker 1:01:21 Anytime. Thank you. Transcribed by https://otter.ai