How are small businesses surviving Covid19?

In this video and post we talk to Chris from Butter Studios about how COVID19 is affecting small businesses in the Vancouver Area. If you find this post useful, please consider following us on YouTube or IG as we try to create more content that will help you run a better business!

Chris Chong 0:00

We double hosting No, you can be the host.

Justin Lam 0:02

I give you the host. All right. So welcome to podcasting list photographers. So I guess for people who end up watching this, let's, why don't we get you to introduce yourself?

Chris Chong 0:18

Right? This is Chris from butter studios, here in my office in isolation, talking with Justin Lam of Three Sixty Media. That's the official name now, right?

Justin Lam 0:29

It is it is the official name now after many iterations.

Chris Chong 0:35

So what's going on in your world? Uh, well, probably similar to most small business owners out there right now. We are pretty much on hold as far as work goes. So just figuring out how to keep busy and how can we support healthy, healthier situation out there and doing our part And trying not to go bonkers from having to distance ourselves from everyone, as someone that's so used to being at events literally every, almost every day to just me and my family and my kids, you know, you have to start thinking about your mental health as well through all of this. But that's pretty much what's going on in terms of keeping busy just looking at ways of still marketing our business and seeing what we can do to prepare for the recovery period after all this is done. And you know, since I have extra time as well, trying to see how we can help my, our local business community here, particularly in a tri city, so we're working with the tri cities Chamber of Commerce on you know, creating some free webinars and all that to help small business owners and See how they can continue to sell their services and goods? Don't get other than that. Yeah, you know, just trying to keep busy.

Justin Lam 2:07

So how are you managing to juggle having the kids at home and doing that work?

Chris Chong 2:12

So kind of just trading off with, with my wife, Gina. And I would still try to spend three to four hours at the studio and put that towards work time. So I've been lucky to have that nobody else has access to SEO. So it's nice. It's nice and clean and not have to worry about any viruses getting in here.

Justin Lam 2:36

Yeah, that's cool. And Togger,, a new part of business. Is that something that's going to be related to butter or is it going to be a completely separate entity?

Chris Chong 2:49

For now it's kind of falls under the butter bread. You know, it's a very soft approach that I'm taking with it. The whole interest was well, I'm a shopaholic when it comes to gear and a total gearhead. So you know, for years now I've just been buying non stop, you know, any sort of accessory that can help me when I'm shooting an event or doing commercial shoot, or weddings for that matter. You know, I'm always interested in new tools that can help me with that. But it was always difficult because you always had to get one piece here, one piece there and go through so many different channels so that that's where I came up with the idea of target where, okay, why can't we have a one stop shop for the most useful accessories that are tried and tested by busy working photographers and have it all under one house. So it's been a soft approach because I wanted to get it launched by my 40th birthday, which I did. And then continue to find different suppliers that can help with that, obviously, with everything that's going on in the world. That's it. It's been a bit of a challenge. But I did get a lot of groundwork done before the pandemic came around. So yeah, guy get a little time to work on it a little bit more these days. But yeah, it's interesting times.

Justin Lam 4:19

Yeah, is interesting. I think a lot of people are really looking at how they do business. And I think they're learning really quickly at how susceptible their businesses are to world events, such as this where it shuts down a city and or the economy. And, I mean, you and I have been in the industry for what better half of almost 20 years now.

Chris Chong 4:43

And we're on the same timeline, aren't we?

Justin Lam 4:45

Right, right near neck and neck, so. So is there anything that you've learned in 20 years of business that that a person who may be just starting out or might have to start all over again, they will Consider this time around,

Chris Chong 5:06

really comes back down to your branding and what you stand for right? Having been in the business for a while, I mean, we've had we have the luxury of returning clients that already know what we can do know what kind of service we can provide. So, you know, we can trust that they'll look us up again, in the future when all of this is done. When you're new in the business, you're going to have to build that customer loyalty and start from start from fresh, which is, which is tough. So you know, if you have the extra time right now, really practice your skills, right? You don't need to be around people to continue to build up. Whether it's your photography or videography skills, do stuff that take pictures of things that you don't normally Do even if it's like household items like the other day, I just spent a couple hours in the studio just grabbing whatever, whether it's a whiskey bottle or another camera that I had, you know, something that's very reflective, which I've always hated to photograph because the editing sucks, but you know, it's it's challenging myself to play around with lighting and see how I can make the process easier and creating like a good quality product after the fact. But, you know, it's definitely a good time for, for people to build their skills and work on their branding. And obviously there are still lots of professionals like yourself working remotely that can help with that also. How about you?

Justin Lam 6:50

well I spent. I think one of the things I would say for a person who is either starting out or probably restarting, so to speak after all this is to remember to put money away. I think that's a big thing that new photographers and and seasoned ones really fail to do. Well, yeah,

Chris Chong 7:17

I spend my money on everything on gear,

Justin Lam 7:19

and it's so easy to do. So we had the luxury in the last maybe 5-10 years where the economy was good and money was coming in, and people would spend it because they think that money is perpetual that like, you know, they'll pay it off in four to five gigs and then they'll I got off a call maybe about a day or so ago with a photographer who, at the time when he wanted to buy the stuff, I said that that might not be a really good idea if you really don't have to cash flow, because like I don't really see that this industry is going to be booming for long enough for you to recover it fast enough and Sure enough, he just decided to go and do it. And now he's crying because he owes a buttload of money and there's nothing coming in the door. You know, money's had to go back out the door, because he's like to give, give back some sort of retainers and deposits. And that sort of sucks. And in that sense, it's, it's really hard. I think for anybody who is a gearhead who really wants to do and buy nice things to get in the habit of banking away that money for the rainy day. And I can tell you that if I didn't bank the money over the last five or six years as as I kind of licked my wounds in the last downturn of the market, I wouldn't be as confident now to be able to last a few months with zero to no revenue coming in. Hey, we have some that will keep the lights on to some degree, but I mean, it's definitely nowhere near our normal pasty but had I not bank that money and bit my bit my fingers as I was going to put, buy or click buy on Amazon or b&h photo that I decided not to. And so I think that's one of the biggest things that I would have learned or could tell us somebody that they could learn more of.

Chris Chong 9:20

Yeah, I don't know if I can ever learn that lesson personally. But

Justin Lam 9:24

So Tough,

Chris Chong 9:25

this, you know, this is a time where, where I really have to, and it's kind of interesting because not just for business, but on a personal personal budget side. It's quite a test recently, because I'm cooking all the time now. I'm not getting takeout at all. I'm not getting that coffee, you know, in the morning from Starbucks with Tim Hortons anymore. Yeah, right. Got my reusable cup here and my Keurig and, you know, not driving as much right now. You know, limiting to just using one credit card when I do have to go get groceries or whatever. So it'd be interesting to see how low I can get my costs. Excuse me how I can get my costs down during this time. And obviously, I'm not spending money on gear at this time, right? Unless I absolutely absolutely have to. I need a couple laugh mics, do they because I realized that the microphone I had wasn't good enough. But you know that that was it. Save that money.

Justin Lam 10:30

is more coming...

Chris Chong 10:31

or in the hand sanitizers, you know,

Justin Lam 10:33

there's more coming. Once you start down that video, video, rabbit hole, it gets worse.

Chris Chong 10:42

Hopefully I can just borrow from Cindy at that point. She has everything. But yeah, budgeting is such a such a tough thing to do. Especially when the money is good. You know, you're you think well I still have balances to be paid off the next few months. So I, you know, I have a good idea of what revenue is coming through. You never expect something like this to happen where it went from, you know this much to zero, just like that.

Justin Lam 11:12

Yeah, that's scary,

Chris Chong 11:14

right? Like, it was an instant, all sudden, every event is canceled. You know, and based on the current mandate, we're non essential, so we have to shut our doors, right? We can bring people in for headshots. And we wouldn't want to as well because we don't want to put anybody at risk at all. At an inquiry was more of a friend messaging me today saying like, hey, my sister just had a baby. She really wants newborn photos. You know, before they're too big because you're supposed to do it within 10 days. You guys do it. And you know what, as far as as much as I would love the paycheck they're sorry, we can't. I don't want to put a baby at risk.

Justin Lam 12:00

I don't even know if you can live yourself at that point

Chris Chong 12:02

Yeah, right. And I mean they're coming from the hospital too so I you know I also just think of the safety of my family as well but yeah you know for for new photographer looking to spend money on gear right now, it's probably not the best time there are things being offered by the government to help alleviate you know, some of the the fixed costs in our businesses right now. But I know you and I were talking earlier off screen that remember this is not free money. Right, you...

Justin Lam 12:38

just deferred payments.

Chris Chong 12:40

Yeah, it's to help with any bills that you have right now. And to defer your payments and after that payment period is is done. Every bank will have their own policy on on repayment. But, you know, know that month, chances are your monthly payment after that is going to be higher, which in turn will probably affect your credit score as well. So if you're looking to get more credit in the future, then you need to consider that also. But absolutely, you know if you have to, and I thought it was it was a good move for me personally for home mortgage. Yes, I did choose to defer the payments. Just take that that bill away for the time being because after all this is over. I know that, you know, we have the tenacity to to bounce back and get that paid off. But I mean, it is a really good thing that the banks are offering that option to help people out right. And then if you do qualify for employment insurance, then definitely apply for that once the applications are up in April.

Justin Lam 13:48

Yeah, I think that's going to be a real Gong Show as well. Trying to get into to CRA to file that claim vi but this might be the only chance for anybody who has been self employed. To for any, like LinkedIn to be able to claim back that yeah, that they've been taken away when they were working for the man.

Chris Chong 14:07

Well, from what, from what I understand if we're self employed, we don't actually qualify for it unless we're taking care of someone who's contracted the Covid 19 virus. We're in quarantine and cannot do anything. That's that's what I understand based on what I've read on the government's website

Justin Lam 14:28

I've haven't paid attention to that much so far.

Chris Chong 14:31

So for for businesses, it's still loan loan based help, I guess is the best way to put it.

Justin Lam 14:39

Yeah, I think it's the same with the BDC when they announced the 80 to $1 billion in in funding and stuff to help and the BDC is gonna allocate those loans in some way, shape or form, but I think people just really have to be careful to understand that that's a loan on top of whatever loans you already have outstanding. So, it's a dangerous place to be. And I don't think there's there's a lot I know some people have a stigma about going back to get a job for a time being just to kind of lick your wounds and get back on your feet back. I mean, that'll get that's a shame either. I think you got to do what you have to do to live and fight another day. For sure.

Chris Chong 15:21

Yeah, there's absolutely no shame in it. You know, I mean, even like grocery stores, like say, when foods are looking for fuel to help stock the shelves because they're just, you know, constantly replenishing all the items, right? Personally, I, you know, I, I'd be more on the safe side, like, I don't know if I want to expose myself to even harsher. So, kudos to the frontline people who are doing it for us because, you know, it's definitely admirable and we as a society needed, right. But yeah, it's funny that you mentioned the BBC. I did go through the application process. They haven't contacted me back yet. I really wanted to see what sort of what sort of help it really is and what the interest rates would be. So I'd be happy to share as long as no confidentiality clause in the contract that you signed there, but I think it's something that's good for people to know before they even apply for it. Yeah, I mean, that's shared on the front that I've seen,

Justin Lam 16:30

and I don't think the BDC even knows what they're gonna do with it now. I mean, like that was just a quick dump and I'm pretty sure that Helen high water the guys upstairs are trying to hammer out what that's gonna look like and in what it's going to be paid back at. That it's going to be that's going to be interesting, and I think they're gonna really try to focus on a lot of that money into the hospitality industry to kind of keep them afloat in the next little while because I mean, Vancouver is such a tourism heavy city. That I mean, if hospitality goes down, like, like a rock, it's going to take this whole economy a long time to kind of recover. Mm hmm. Like, yeah, I mean, and the part about that shitty is it's when you have a restaurant or you have like a company that's paying rent to the landlord. It's not like the landlord can give you much of a break either because they still have to talk to the bank. And at the end of the day, somebody's got to pay the piper. Right? And so whether that's the landlord who has to pay the bank, or it's the it's the tenant that has to pay the landlord. There's really no reprieve somewhere along the way somebody got he got to take the hit. And I don't know if it's fair on either side of the coin, and that's what makes it shitty because Vancouver is such an expensive place. And, and when it when it's so expensive. It really It really does. tests, you know, those people who don't even bank more than a month's worth of stuff. I mean, some people generally paycheck to paycheck and if you were like a server whatever and rely on tips like you got nothing like zero and they're already checked to check

Chris Chong 18:15

like and EI only pay so much right so I won't even be close to

Justin Lam 18:19

and they don't pay EI on your tips. Yeah, right they pay EI the base salary like that's peanuts in some places, right like that's minimum wage. But like the tips really make ip grounds for a lot of those people. So yeah, I mean, I feel bad for sort of everybody in that in that whole market. And I've realized now how many people in my close network of business friends like really are like one two months away from being done? Yep. Yeah. So on the horizon. Anything new biz dev wise? Are you guys are you gonna try to move on to a different market or add a different product or service

Chris Chong 19:04

I think we're going to stick to our strengths and you know continue to offer was what we've been offering on the in the event side has always been growing. I do have one you type of booth that like photo booth ish thing that we're launching that we're planning to launch pretty soon. Cool, that's fine because because the package just came from China like a week ago. So it's in quarantine right now.

Justin Lam 19:37

Open the bag and don't touch it for a few days

Chris Chong 19:40

and I sprayed it down with Lysol it's kind of just been sitting in the corner on its own since I got it. But you know, once we get that open, we'll do some promo videos and marketing materials for it. But it'll be really cool. I it's kind of early for me to say yet. I don't

Justin Lam 20:00

Cool, don't, don't

Chris Chong 20:02

Wait until it launches but it falls in the line of portrait stations, just a cooler version of it. And I think we'll be the first to launch it depending on how everything goes forward to seeing that that's totally cool for the time being, and I don't know if this helpful for other small businesses out there, but we already had a an account with square Credit Card Services. So I never used their online store front function. Because with Togger we've had our our own setups using WooCommerce. But I played around with it and I managed to set up a new account within 10 minutes and had an active store selling a product within 20 minutes.

Justin Lam 20:51

That's pretty

Chris Chong 20:53

low, little cleanup required, but you know, what I'm using it for us to sell gift cards for our business as well as Shooting vouchers. So that way we can still, if people don't want the physical gift cards sent to them, they get the digital version of the gift card for the time being, so people can still buy it as a birthday gift or anniversary gift for the friends and family. And there's no expiry on the card on the credits so they can book at any time and well after this whole chaotic mess that we're in, is over.

Justin Lam 21:31

Yeah, yeah, we've implemented that for quite some time through square. We did that quite early on. It's been neat. It's been successful in that case, and we haven't tied to our physical swipeable carts here at the studio, which has been great. So it's awesome that you figure it out to do something there and maybe you'll eventually migrate your entire togger line into square the one less platform you have to deal with.

Chris Chong 21:56

Yeah, it's possible. I mean,

Justin Lam 21:59

you got time

Chris Chong 22:00

The platform I'm using connects to square, which is the funny part, right? So it's like, Yeah, why don't I just might as well just run the entire store through yours. So that's definitely in consideration. And I think there was a note going out to square users that some of the monthly fees are being waived during this time also, so for people that want to get on and get on to, I think it's a premium option that they that they can sign up with. You know, there's that possibility there as well. Yeah. I mean, as far as services goes, it's going to be from what I project right now. It's going to be business as it was with the addition of new launching. Yeah.

Justin Lam 22:47

Nice. So that's going to be interesting. I think that's gonna be an interesting market. Good thing that you have the space to house it. Yeah, well,

Chris Chong 22:56

we're now you know, maybe during this time, I'm going to sell off a bunch Have a let's call them impulse purchases that I've made in the past that haven't used I got a lot of camera bags and

Justin Lam 23:08

but it's crazy like, like on that Facebook marketplace. Everybody in the dog is selling shit. It's crazy. Like they're, they're just fire sailing everything. Great for some people, but not so great if your trigger happy and you just want to pick up something for fun, but you're really looking for something it's a good deal to be found, I think at this point, so we're just selling you just to recover some cash to float today's bills or whatever.

Chris Chong 23:34

Yeah. So I mean, how do I manage the social distancing though, when people come and pick up their items? That's Yes.

Justin Lam 23:41

So you get them to pay by square and you leave it outside just before they come.

Chris Chong 23:47

There you better pick it up now because it's raining outside. And don't touch my door. Sure, sure.

Chris Chong 23:59

For Three Sixty Media?

Justin Lam 24:01

Well for

Chris Chong 24:02

changes planned for, when throwback in biz here,

Justin Lam 24:06

well, not necessarily so much a change in plan, I think there's a lot of stuff that is status quo, it'll go back to servicing all the clients that are waiting for this to be over and allowing us back into the offices to do stuff. But I think one of the things that we've been pushing, and that's been in development for the last four ish years is the content management and content strategy, part of our business. And I know that you guys stay are staying in the niche of photography. We're not but I think a lot of our work revolves around brand and brand strategy. And then, you know, taking that content and being able to multiply that over a bunch of different platforms, and that's something that we're going to spend a little bit more time on. I think it's it's a deeper passion for me it's, I mean, Three Sixty Media is Business number six. And so doing all that stuff and realize that as much as I like photography, I don't think I like it as much as I like building businesses and sort of building the processes that allow a business to function in a way that you know, your, your sole proprietor or owner is able to step away, and then do what they're really good at. And I think that's a, that's something that very few people really get to where they're an entrepreneur, they're, they're always so deep in it, that they've got to be the one to, you know, in our case, be the shooter be the editors, a lot of the time those solo printers or their their husband, wife teams, with very little infrastructure in the back end. And so for us, it's trying to empower those people to be better and to create businesses that are going to thrive in the market and be able to to work on scaling, whatever it is that they want to do, I think partially because the market is really against. So printers like, as soon as soon as you decide to hang out your shingle all games in the in, in the the small business world is rigged against you. The statistics are horrible. Like, why didn't one in five don't make it, you know, in their first in your first year like you you're you're you're in a losing game you don't have as much funding like, like the support that you get financially comes at a premium, you know, because they view us as high risk. And so and then of course everybody has things that target small businesses and the problem with that is is because there's so much available in the market. You don't really know how to Navigate it, and you don't know what you're purchasing.

Chris Chong 27:04

It's very similar with any sort of creative profession, right? If you're an artist of any sort, and trying to make a living out of it, I think there's a lot of similarities there. And it's really finding the business person in you while still being an artist. And I think a lot of artists don't feel feel like they are selling out in a way if they're making money off of their work. And, you know, a lot of them fail because they can't, they can't see past that and create a balance between the two. So I think your the arrangement that you have right now and the model that you that you have built, it's it's a very great it's a great model. And you know, when I first heard that you You're sort of going more towards helping people build sort of their their branding strategy and a continuing relationship. I thought that was a very, very smart move. And, you know, it's it's an ongoing relationship, right. And that's sort of the key difference is that it's, you're not just doing that one job and it's done. It's having that ongoing relationship and helping them maintain that model that you've helped them build, build and, and so on.

Justin Lam 28:33

Yeah, it's a it's just, it's there's so many variables that go into it. And I think people get stuck with paralysis in that regard, whether you're, you're an artist or you're, you're you're in a completely different industry. I think a lot of it stems around is, you know, they see all these success stories in their in their industry, that they keep going well, I can't do that. Because dot dot dot and the thing is, is it's not that they can't do it because of dot dot dot. It's they have other underlying issues and, and pitfalls or gaps in their branding. And that's something that's going to help them bridge and also create infrastructure so that they can build on it and grow with it rather than having to tear it all down and do rebrands every three to five years because it didn't work the first time. Yeah, so it's in for the long haul. It's trying to find a way to to give them a chance to win. And that's something that I don't think is common in the in the marketplace. I think it's just like, take my e course and see you later. But I think for us, it's going to be the long haul My goal is to help 1000 My goal is to help 1000

Chris Chong 29:48

1000 Okay,

Justin Lam 29:49

That's number of cap it at on 1000 raving fans of people that we've moved the needle for, in in a measurable way that that helps change things Their lives. And that that means that they can change the lives of the communities that that were in really nice.

Chris Chong 30:05

What happens after 1000?

Justin Lam 30:08

I guess I'll deal with it when 1000. But my first one is 1000.

Chris Chong 30:12

That's like, that's like, you know, two months from now, right?

Justin Lam 30:14

Well, we would like to think that but like, the honest truth about it, as I think a lot of it is, is trying to get in front of a lot of people, and finding the ones that really understand, you know, where, where I want to go with it. And it's, it's not for anything other than I really want them to have a chance to win. But I mean, I think it'd be really cool to have, like, you know, when we are kids go back to school sports and stuff that, you know, we can have artists or small companies, you know, be able to sponsor things like jerseys or whatever it is to those communities. You know, because

Chris Chong 30:48

it's not just the bigger corporations, right.

Justin Lam 30:50

Yeah. I mean, the bigger corporations are great for some things, but it's really, it would be really nice to see small businesses thrive to a point where they feel Safe and they feel empowered that they can make a small difference. You know, whatever capacity it is, I mean, that not only from a branding or marketing standpoint where they get it put the logo in front of people, but it's just a feel good thing. I mean, like, I bet you there's some people who are out there who have businesses, who, you know, in their hearts wanted to be able to, you know, serve up a couple of hundred meals a month to people who are kids who are, you know, don't get a breakfast or whatever, but they can't, they just don't have the capacity because they're just too busy putting out fires, they don't have enough money in the bank that makes them feel safe in a place where they can donate that money or that time. And I just, I'd like to, I'd like that to change because my kid's going to grow up in that community. Right. And and it suck if we don't have the infrastructure and we have to rely on big, big brands. And, you know, they put a lot of stipulations on those types of things and what do you sacrifice for that whereas the small local businesses get that chance like to But they're paid for it, you're also supporting the local economy. And, and hopefully that, that that that goes around full circle in the communities that we serve

Chris Chong 31:40

and and the reality is any small businesses, any small business can do that right just to have it as part of our, our monthly plan, you know, a portion of it is hey, we, you know, support community in XYZ fashion. And if we just have it as part of our day to day you know, it's it's absolutely doable, but a lot of times like you say, we're putting out fires or, you know, just trying to catch up on our emails and, and follow ups that we forget about stuff like you know, of course, it's it's easier said than done, especially in a time like this, but there's also a good time for us to think about that and how can we incorporate it into our regular monthly business plan?

Justin Lam 32:58

Yeah, I think But that's something that would be great to I think small businesses should really consider that when they're back on track is, you know, you don't have to carve out a ton of money, but you know, carving out that one, one and a half percent of your revenues to try to make a difference once a year, for whatever business it is, I mean, or to whatever community project it is. And if that means it's $1,000 over a course of a year, that's $1,000 that goes into a system, you know, that that could really use it could make the difference for, you know, one kid or it can make a difference to a small sports team or whatever it is. And

Chris Chong 33:36

while if I mean if 50 businesses do that, then you know, that's, that's 50 grand back into the community right there, right?

Justin Lam 33:41

Yeah. And how much more fun would that be to have a community that's empowered together?

Chris Chong 33:47

Mm hmm. I'd love to see a hockey team sponsored by Three Sixty Media versus a hockey team sponsored by Butter Studios.

Justin Lam 33:55

Oh, that'd be so funny. That'd be so awesome.

Chris Chong 33:57

It'd be it'd be the most well documented. To game ever

Justin Lam 34:02

Yeah, photo and video coverage live feeds photo booths for the people. It would be fun. That would be that would be cool.

Chris Chong 34:11

So we should make that a goal. We should make that a goal in the near future.

Justin Lam 34:16

Yeah. My kids already on track to skating so yeah. But yeah, thanks for taking some time out to to chat. I think it's nice to be able to connect, you know, and it's something that we don't necessarily get to do very often, especially when it's busy season.

Chris Chong 34:34

I know we were supposed to go get some satays and curry the other day, I wish we took advantage of that before everything was shut down. But there will be another day and first chance we get. I'd be happy. I'd be happy to meet up in person and let's get some eats.

Justin Lam 34:52

Yeah, absolutely. I'm so fortunate. I got to Singapore. I got back just before this whole thing went out. So I canceled my trip.

Chris Chong 35:01

You know, wasn't shut down yet, but it was just in foresight of what's to come. And I'm glad I did, because four of the stops I would have made is like, it was the COVID tour, yeah. No, no, it was great chatting with you and catching up.

Chris Chong 35:24

You know, hopefully, people have watched us get a little value out of it. I think between the two of us we have quite a bit of resources as well. So I'm definitely open to taking any questions on you know, the the ever changing situation right now and what I found out and that can help small businesses and and whatnot.

Justin Lam 35:45

Yeah, and, and for those people who are watching, maybe we can tell them how they can reach out to us and maybe I'll, what do you go first and give me a plug for your your website or your email. No

Chris Chong 36:00

Sure, you can always reach me through my social channels at Butter Studios, I know we got a few channels out there but address us at Butter Studios Agency or you can email me at I'm not a big fan of phone calls, I used to work around call centers for yours. So you can text me as well you can find my number on our website.

Justin Lam 36:25

Cool, cool. So for me, it's a you can actually do that'll that'll redirect as well. We just bought the domain and you have to spell it out. So that's a business mistake in itself and it's worthy of a podcast of another day. But you could spell and that'll get this get you to our website. You can find me on social and what Instagram, LinkedIn, Spotify and YouTube so just look it up and find us there. Awesome, awesome. Well you have yourself an awesome day Say hi to Gina and Big hugs to the kids stay safe.

Chris Chong 37:08

Likewise stay healthy everyone

Justin Lam 37:10

says like Take care. Bye bye

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